Yu. T. -
Koj tuaj yeem txhais qhov xwm ntawm koj lub architecture zoo li cas?
Alexey Bavykin -
Tau, tej zaum, nws yog qhov nyuaj heev rau kev faib kuv raws li lub ntsiab lus lees txais tam sim no - Kuv tsis poob rau hauv cov neeg niaj hnub los yog neoclassicism. Kuv xav hais tias kuv lub ntsiab lus yog qhov sib txuam ntawm ob qho. Thawj daim ntawm cov ncauj lus no tau ua tiav 20 xyoo dhau los rau qhov kev sib tw Style xyoo. Nws yog cov iav prism rau qhov uas cov pob zeb ua haujlwm ntawm Adolph Loos 'kem tau ntxiv rau.
Kuv yeej ib txwm xav hais tias Loos Tower yog qhov nthuav tsim tshaj plaws hauv kev sib tw 1922 Chicago Tribune rau qhov uas nws tau ua. Gropius cov phiaj xwm, ua rau tib qho kev sib tw, yog kev hnav khaub ncaws, niaj hnub, tab sis tsis muaj zog. Xijpeem, Kuv xav tias Loos Tower yog qhov feem ntau dashing thiab advanced peb tes num ntawm 20s.
Vim li cas?
Vim tias Pov Xyooj yog ib tug txiv neej xav tom ntej. Nws yog leej txiv ntawm txhua lub tsev kawm ntawv uas niaj hnub no, uas nws tau nthuav tawm tom qab txav tawm ntawm lub neej tshiab lawm. Tab sis twb tau txog xyoo 1922 nws tau ua nws ib kem. Koj puas tau nyeem Loos cov lus piav qhia uas nws txuas nrog rau qhov kev sib tw kis las? Nws hais tias muaj: tej zaum tsis yog kuv thiab tsis nyob ntawm no, tsis yog nyob Chicago, tab sis lwm qhov - tab sis qhov zoo li no yuav twv yuav raug tsim. Thiab tsis ntev los sis tom qab yuav muaj cov neeg uas yuav nkag siab cov ntsiab lus no thiab nws yuav yog los ntawm lawv tias txoj kab tshiab hauv architecture yuav mus.
Yog li thaum Aldo Rossi nug kuv cov lus nug ncaj qha - koj xav li cas txog qhov style xyoo 2001? - Kuv muab cov lus teb no. Tau txais qee yam khoom plig thib ob, uas tsis yog tib qho. Raws li cov lus xaiv, Aldo Rossi tau rub qhov phiaj xwm no rau hauv txhua txoj hauv kev, los ntawm tus txiv neej European, thiab tus Japanese tsis to taub dab tsi.
Koj puas tau muaj kev sib txuas ua ntej “kev tsim qauv xyoo 2001”?
Tsis tau, ua ntej ntawd kuv yog tus hnav zoo nkauj tom qab xa xov.
Raws li qhov tseeb, txhua tsav txhua yam, kuv cov ntawv zoo tshaj plaws, yog txuas ntxiv ntawm cov ntsiab lus ntawd. Yuav ua li cas txhais nws, kuv tsis paub, Kuv tsis yog tus thuam thiab qee zaum kuv tau txais tsis meej pem hauv kev txhais cov ntsiab lus. Tab sis hauv kuv lub tswv yim, qhov no yog qhov txuas ntxiv ntawm kev tshawb nrhiav ntawm 30s thaum ntxov. Nws yog qhov tshwm sim zoo kawg, tab sis nws tsis tau paub tag nrho, vim tias txhua yam nyob hauv cov tswv yim thiab cov ntawv ua haujlwm, thiab ob peb lub tsev ntawm cov kev taw qhia no tseem nyob.
Koj ib zaug tau hais tias koj pom koj lub luag haujlwm hauv kev txuas ntxiv mus tshawb fawb rationalists ntawm ASNOVA …
Lawm, vim hais tias cov neeg no tau tuaj tham txog daim foos. Tab sis ntau tus neeg hais mav tau ua fuss thiab txhua hom kev xaiv thiab sib ntaus ntawm lawv tus kheej tau ntev. Tom qab ntawd Comrade Stalin tau qhia lawv tias yuav kos duab licas - thiab txhua tus zoo siab, lawv tau hais tias, huag, zoo kawg!
Nws ntseeg tau tias dhau los uas tau tshwm sim hauv 30s tau yuam …
Nov yog kev xav ntawm Khan-Magomedov, Kuv tsis pom zoo nrog nws. Kuv xav hais tias ib qho kev qhia raug dua rau lub ntsiab lus no yog nyob rau hauv phau ntawv los ntawm Vladimir Paperny "Kab lis kev cai ob" - nws ntseeg hais tias rau cov neeg Lavxias kab lis kev cai feem ntau, pib los ntawm Ivan III, thiab tej zaum txawm tias ntxov dua, muaj ib qho kev hloov pauv ntawm ob, kuj hais lus, "Kev Ncaj Ncees" - "kab lis kev cai ib" thiab "kab lis kev cai ob". Ib qho kab lis kev cai nws, tshwj xeeb, hais txog avant-garde ntawm 20s, kab lis kev cai ob - mus rau Stalinist classicism uas hloov nws.
Yog li ntawd, tsis muaj leej twg yuam ib tus kom ua classicism es tsis txhob avant-garde - tsuas yog nkees! Txuas ntxiv, nws tau txiaj ntsig ntau los ua Stalin qhov "kev coj noj coj ua ob". Cov kab ke ntawm kev them nqi ua qauv vaj tsev hauv tebchaws Soviet yog ib daim ntawv xwb. Koj tuaj yeem xav tias Chechulin khwv tau nyiaj ntau npaum li cas? Qhov kev kho kom zoo ntawm daim foos no yog ib pawg ntawm daim phiaj uas muag hauv nplooj ntawv. Lawv zoo siab heev! Qhov ntau kos, qhov ntau peb khwv tau - thiab khwv tau.
Thiab yuav ua li cas hais txog qhov tsim kho cov phiaj xwm tshiab thaum nws nyob ntawm ib daim ntawv? Nws tsis haum rau "kab lis kev cai ob". Ua haujlwm nyuaj, tub. Melnikov tawm mus los yuav tsis coj zoo heev rau lawv. Nws tsis tuaj yeem kos teeb meem rau sab kev uas Alabyan tau ua. Ruam dhau heev thiab orthodox.
Paperny hais tias nws yog qhov tseeb - muaj kab lis kev cai ib thiab kab lis kev cai ob. Koj tsuas yog yuav tsum coj qhov peb muaj zoo los ntawm kab lis kev cai ib thiab nws cov neeg coj ua thiab txhua yam zoo uas kab lis kev cai ob tau muab. Thiab cov neeg no yuav tsum nyob thaj yeeb.
Koj tabtom ua dabtsi?
Thiab Kuv dai nyob rau hauv nruab nrab.
Koj puas sib tsoo lossis rov sib ceg?
Piv txwv li, Kuv tsoo. Kuv qee zaum ua ob qho kev cai noj rau tib qho chaw.
Tab sis koj tsis tshua hwm ob kab lis kev cai
Kuv tsis nyiam recklessness. Hnub no peb khiav mus rau qhov ntawd, tag kis mus rau ib qho no. Kuv tsis xav khiav hauv txhua qhov kev coj nrog txhua tus. Kuv tsis xav tau. Nws tsis nthuav rau kuv - khiav hauv ib pab tsiaj, ntawm no thiab muaj.
Muaj cov neeg uas txiav txim siab koj qhov eclectic
Tsis yog, qhov no ua tsis yog lawm. Lub hauv paus ntsiab lus ntawm eclecticism yog qhov kev nyiam sib xyaw ua ke ntawm cov qauv ntawm kev thov ntawm cov neeg siv khoom. Eclecticism tshwm sim thaum tus nplua nuj bourgeoisie tshwm sim thiab cov kws ua vaj tsev tau tshwm sim uas hais tias: Koj puas xav sib xyaw Rome nrog Byzantium? - koj puas kam. Hauv qhov kev nkag siab, Kuv kiag li tsis eclectic. Kuv cov ncauj lus tsis yog sib tov, tab sis qhov kev sib tshuam ntawm ob haiv neeg. Thiab tsis muaj lwm lub ncauj lus ntxiv lawm.
Koj pib tsim tsev ntxov …
Yog lawm, Kuv ib txwm ua npau suav tsim ib yam dab tsi thiab tau tsim ntau yam, tab sis tsis yog txhua yam kuv nyiam. Zoo li Melnikov muaj cov koom ua pawg. Ib qho zoo - qhov tsis tau paub tsis meej masterpiece ntawm Rusakov lub club, thiab tus so yog qhov tsis zoo, ntau qis dua hauv qib. Kuv muaj qee yam zoo sib xws. Muaj ntau lub tsev uas kuv ib txwm tsis tau tshaj tawm.
Tab sis muaj xiav lub tsev nthuav dav ntawm Vernadsky Avenue. Txawm Ikonnikov twb tau tshaj tawm nws hauv keeb kwm ntawm Lavxias architecture. Txawm hais tias ntawm ib qhov twg nws zoo nkaus li zoo, thiab los ntawm qhov chaw nws zoo li tsis zoo, Kuv tsis tau txais nws rau hauv kev npaj hauv nroog. Kuv tsis muaj txaus ntim. Kuv tau rub nws, rub nws, ntxiv ib tug pej thuam, tab sis tseem muaj tsis txaus. Thaum koj mus rau ntawm qhov chaw, nws zoo nkaus li. Thaum koj mus ntawm Moscow, nws sawv hauv qhov thiab yog qhov yuav luag pom.
Lub tswv yim npaj phiaj xwm hauv nroog yog qhov tseem ceeb rau koj?
Qhov no yog, yog tias ua tau, kev kho tshiab ntawm nroog-phiaj xwm ntsiab lus ntaub ntawm lub nroog. Hauv cov tsev ntawv-hauv ntawm Mozhaisk txoj kev loj, Kuv ntseeg tias kuv tswj kom ua tiav cov nyhuv no.
Rau kuv, tus kwv no yog lub hauv paus pib pib, vim tias nws reacts rau nroog, thiab muaj kev nquag. Qhov no yog ib thooj ntawm Stalinist nplai ntawm Kutuzovka, thawb mus rau qhov chaw sab nrauv, thiab tib lub sijhawm - cov lus piv txwv ntawm triumphal koov ntawm Beauvais sawv 10 km ze rau lub nroog chaw. Yog tias koj mus ntawm no, koj pom daim phiaj ntawd; yog koj tawm ntawm qhov ntawd, koj pom daim koov no. Ib qho ntxiv, hauv kuv lub koov, kev sib tshuam ntawm daim ntawv classic thiab lub ntsej muag iav lub ntsej muag uas mus los ntawm nws yog accentuated, cia siv hlua nws nws tus kheej.
Ib qho kev ua yeeb yam tau ua tiav lawm - thiab kuv cia siab tias nyob rau ob peb puas xyoo tom ntej no yam yuav cuam tshuam dab tsi yuav tshwm sim puag ncig nws. Nws tus kheej yuav qhia kuv tus kheej lawm, ib yam li Bryusov yuav hais qhov hloov pauv ntawm Bryusov. Txij li muaj cov lus teb tseeb rau cov teeb meem hauv nroog loj tau muab.
Txawm li cas los xij, cov koov ntawm Mozhaisk txoj kev loj tsis muaj pob kws, kab, ncaj cov ntsiab lus classical. Cov thooj no, ntawm tag nrho, zoo heev niaj hnub hauv cov nqe lus ntawm nws cov yas. Tab sis nws muaj lub ntsiab lus. Rethought, tsim nyog rov kho dua, tsis yog ncaj qha. Ncaj nraim cov classicism - koj paub tias nws xaus li cas.
Thiab nws xaus li cas?
Yas ntaub thaiv kab ke. Txhua lub computer stucco moulding - tam sim no koj tsuas tuaj yeem luam theej duab tib Palladio thiab lawv yuav coj koj tib pob kws ua los ntawm qee cov khib nyiab. Cov peev txheej me, hauv kuv lub tswv yim, muaj txiaj ntsig vim tias nws tau tsim los ntawm txhais tes, thiab tsuas yog tom qab ntawd nws puas muaj qhov muaj nqis.
Tab sis Moscow yeej ib txwm tsis muaj Roman arches thiab ciav dej …
Vim li cas tsis muaj? Thiab tag nrho Moscow faj tim teb chaws style? Lub koov ntawm tib Beauvais zoo heev, hauv Loos tsis muaj ib qho zoo li no. Peb tau ncaws tawm Napoleon tawm ntawm no thiab tau muab cov koov no ntxiv. Thiab tsis muaj koov nyob rau Paris. Nws mob heev nyob rau qhov ntawd. No ib qho zoo dua. Cam khwb cia hlau thiab zoo. Cov cam khwb cia-hlau faj tim teb chaws, koj paub - koj tuaj yeem tsoo ntuj raug txim!
Cia peb tsim cov ntsiab lus ntawm kev coj noj coj ua …
Lub ntsiab lus yog qhov zoo, tsuas yog nws nyuaj heev. Nov yog lub ncauj lus rau kev sib tham sib cais, tab sis qhov tseem ceeb ntawm cov lus nug yog tias peb cov kev coj noj coj ua hauv lub teb chaws yog qhov kawg ntawm kev coj noj coj ua ib qho thiab kev coj ua ob hauv qhov chaw thiab sijhawm. Qhov binary system, uas, kuv ntseeg, yog tus yam ntxwv pom qhov tshwj xeeb ntawm Lavxias kab lis kev cai chaw.
Tab sis koj tsis saib tshwj xeeb hauv cov ntawv xov xwm txawv teb chaws, puas yog?
Vim li cas? Tau kawg kuv ua. Txhua yam nws yog nyob ntawm seb koj saib lawv li cas, cov ntawv xov xwm no. Ntau yam peb pom hauv cov ntawv xov xwm txawv teb chaws yog los ntawm peb 20s, thiab kuv tuaj yeem ua pov thawj qhov no nrog ntau cov piv txwv. Kuv saib cov peev txheej thiab ntawm qhov txhais lus, Kuv pom ob qho tib lub sijhawm - yog li ntawd, saib lwm txoj haujlwm ntawm Rem Koolhaas, Kuv pom qhov twg nws txhais ceg loj hlob los ntawm.
Nws mob heev ntxiv thaum saib cov ntawv xov xwm, thiab cov khoom qub yog tsis paub. Nov yog peb lub tebchaws kev coj ua - kom kis tau rot, kom lwm tus ntshai. Hauv ib lo lus, cov ncauj lus yooj yim heev - koj xav tau kev paub txog keeb kwm ntawm architecture, thiab ntau dua nws yog, qhov zoo dua. Kev tawm ntawm cov ntawv xov xwm zam yog qhov tsis zoo.
Qhov no yog dab tsi pisses kuv tawm lately - txhua leej txhua tus yog vwm txog kev lag luam architecture. Ua, lawv hais tias, peb cuaj los ntawm cuaj zoo li hauv Europe. Dab tsi ua rau koj xav tias 9 x 9 no yog Europe? lossis Amelikas? leej twg hais rau koj ntawd?
Koj tsis nyiam ua lag luam architecture
Yog tsis muaj kev lag luam architecture! Nws yog qhov tsim ntawm cov neeg uas tsis tuaj yeem ua ib yam dabtsi. Txhua yam tuaj yeem ua kom tau zoo thiab raug, lossis koj tuaj yeem hais tau - cia kuv ib leeg, Kuv ua kev lag luam architecture. Qhov no txhais tau tias ib tus neeg tsis muaj kev ua yeeb yam zoo nkauj. Tau 25 xyoos dhau los kuv tau siv ib qho kev pab kos duab. Yog tias tib neeg nyiam nws thiab yog tias tib neeg yuav pom zoo thiab tsim nws, kuv qhia lawv - ua tsaug ntau dua rau txhua tus uas pab. Leej twg thab kuv - nrog tias kuv muaj kev sib raug zoo heev.
Thaum nyob hauv lub nroog no thiab hauv lub tebchaws no muaj cov neeg coob coob uas tsis muaj kev pabcuam dabtsi hlo li - tsis hais kev ua yeeb yam lossis tsis muaj ib yam dabtsi li, tom qab ntawd thov zam txim rau kuv, tsiv mus nyob, Kuv yog tus thib ib, koj yog tus thib ob. Thiab hais txog nyiaj, ib yam nkaus. Them rau kos duab. Palladio them nqi ntau kawg rau kev ua yeeb yam. Thiab nyob rau hauv peb lub sijhawm nws muaj peev xwm ua tiav qhov xwm txheej zoo li no cov nyiaj loj tau them rau kev nqis tes ua ntawm ib qho kev kos duab, thiab tsis yog rau kev ua lag luam architecture.
Txoj haujlwm kev kos duab yog siv, piv txwv li, los ntawm Skokan, Plotkin thiab lwm tus - lawv tau nyob ze rau kab lis kev cai ib leeg. Ntawm kab lis kev cai, muaj ob - Utkin, Filippov, Belov, Barkhin … Brodsky yog daim duab cais kiag li. Cov no yog cov tib neeg, ntxiv rau qhov tseeb tias lawv xav khwv tau nyiaj, kuj tseem xav hais ib yam dab tsi, kom ntseeg tau.
Koj cov qauv rau architecture zoo yog dab tsi?
Tsis yog, kuv tsis. Kuv nyiam Palladio heev. Nws yog kiag li tus neeg yog. Nrog dab tsi nws sau, Kuv kiag li pom zoo. Tag nrho lub siab.
Nws muaj cov kev qhia tawm tswv yim …
Pragmatic kiag li. Tab sis saib seb nws tau ua txhua yam li Vicenza. Nws cov tsev txhim kho lub nroog ntawm Vicenza. Lawv tsis yog los ntawm lawv tus kheej, lawv tau nruj heev rau cov ntaub, lawv tuav nws, daim ntaub no. Koj puas nco qab yam tshwm sim? Vicenza poob nws qhov kev ywj pheej thiab cov bandits Venetian tuaj txog ntawd, tab sis twb dhau los ua qhov muag. Vim tias lawv tau ci ntsa iab, lawv tig mus rau Andrea Palladio. Thiab lawv hais tias - Andryukha, peb zoo ib yam li koj txoj kev xav ntawm lub tsev kawm ntawv.”Nov yog cov lus txiav txim rau koj, ntxiv rau koj tsim kom muaj cov tsev nyob sab nraum zoov rau peb. Thiab nws, nyob rau hauv parallel nrog lub nroog Vicenza, tab tom tsim tsev villas nyob ib ncig ntawm nws, thiab nws cov neeg muas zaub nyob ntawd dawb - thiab nyab xeeb - khom nqi. Yog vim li ntawd Palladio yog qhov tshwm sim hauv architecture: nws ua lub nroog tsis muaj lub nroog Vicenza, tau teeb tsa qee qhov pib. Thiab tsis tau vim tias muaj qee qhov tshwj xeeb xaj. Nws tuaj yeem kos txhua yam sib txawv.
Yog High Renaissance architecture koj zoo tagnrho?
Nruab Nrab … Bryusov txawv ntawm Florentine palazzo li cas? Tsis muaj dabtsi kiag li. Tsuas yog ntawm no yog txhuas, qee yam ntawm visor. Yog li tom qab tag nrho, muaj ib tug visor. Txhua yam yog raws li qhov nws yuav tsum yog - ib qho kev tiv thaiv, ib lub tshav puam sab hauv. Tsuas yog nyob rau hauv kev sib txawv txhua yam yog kos. Vim tias kuv ua tib zoo mloog thiab nyeem cov kab lus. Peb tau qhia qhov no ntawm lub tsev kawm ntawv, peb tau hais rau - High Renaissance, tom qab ntawd peb tau qhia - lub architecture ntawm Lavxias classicism. Zoo, nws txhua qhov tseem nyob hauv lub hlwb.
Koj yog ib tug kws lij choj uas tsis tshua muaj keeb kwm ntawm kev tsim vaj tsev tiag tiag li
Zoo, ib txwm, Kuv khawb rau hauv keeb kwm ntawm architecture. Yuav ua li cas txog Palladio? Nws, ib yam nkaus thiab, zoo li tau khawb hauv qee qhov tsis tseem ceeb. Renaissance architecture ntsia tsis yooj yim tshaj plaws tom qab qhov nyuaj tshaj plaws ntawm Gothic, uas yog nyob rau hauv xyoo pua 15th. Gothic tswv - tom qab tag nrho, nws tsim tau cov chaw zoo nkauj uas Norman Foster quaj muaj nrog nws tus qauv. Tab sis kuv yeej tsis nyiam cov tsev teev ntuj no vim lawv txoj hauj lwm hem tib neeg. Txhua qhov kev piav qhia nyuaj muaj lub hom phiaj muab ib tus neeg nyob rau hauv lub taub hau - lawv hais tias, zaum ntsiag to, ntshai Vajtswv thiab tig rau hauv koj lub khob noom cookie. Nov yog kab Catholic uas tsis muaj dab tsi ua rau peb. Cov ntseeg Orthodox tsis muaj cai tawm tsam nrog Vajtswv, tab sis ib tus neeg Catholic muaj. Kuv yuav ib qho indulgence - uas yog txhua yam. Txawm hais tias Orthodox, yog tias lawv ntaus nws hauv lub siab, yuav, ntawm chav kawm, tseem pib txhim tsa qee lub tsev teev ntuj. Yog lawm, thiab kuv yuav pib.
Koj tuaj yeem tsim lub tshawj?
Dab tsi yog tam sim no tau kos npe los ntawm Orthodox txoj cai yog kiag li tsis xav txog kuv. Peb tseem tsis tau mus txog rau qhov chaw uas cov kws tshaj lij Lavxias yuav raug tso cai rau kev tshawb nrhiav ntxiv hauv Lavxias Orthodox architecture.
Cappella nyob Ronshan Koj puas nyiam?
Lawm kuv nyiam nws, vim tias Corbusier, ua ntej tawm mus, txawm li cas los xij qhia rau kev ua haujlwm tiav. Rov kho kom zoo rau lub nroog ntawm lub hnub thiab chav Marseilles. Vim tias kuv ntseeg tias nws tsis tuaj yeem ua lub tsev rau cov neeg uas muaj kev ua neej nyob thiab qhov chaw tsawg kawg nkaus. Tom qab tag nrho, cov kws tsim tawm niaj hnub no tsim lawv tsis yog rau lawv tus kheej (lawv tau tsim cov tsev ວິນ rau lawv tus kheej) tab sis rau lwm tus, rau cov neeg uas yuav tsum tau tsim lub neej yav tom ntej ci ntsa iab. Txawm hais tias cov ncauj lus no nws tus kheej - cov tsev sib tham - tam sim no zoo nkauj heev. Cov neeg tuaj pom lawv; cov neeg txawv tebchaws, piv txwv, mus rau ntawm Moscow lub tsev-teev tseg ntawm Nikolaev mus nyob rau ntawd tau ob peb lub lis piam. Tab sis tag nrho cov no ua tau zoo raws li huab, zoo, lossis los yog lub tsev thib ob lossis thib peb ntawm eccentric millionaire. Thiab tsim tej tsev no kom tib neeg nyob rau ntawd mus tas ib txhis.
Puas yog koj qhov kev kawm kos duab yog ib daim qauv ntawm kev coj zoo?
Ib feem yog. Nyob rau tib lub sijhawm, Kuv nkag siab hais tias tsis yog txhua yam ntawm leej txiv yog nyob rau hauv kev coj ua. Thiab nws yeej tsis tshwm sim tias txhua yam yog txhua yam. Tab sis lub teb chaws tsim nyog thiab thaj chaw nplua nuj. Koj yuav tsum saib ib puag ncig kom zoo, nyeem txog Ivan Kalita, txog Ivan III, koj yuav tsum nyeem txhua yam. Tam sim no kuv zoo siab los kho cov saw hlau no thiab nws yog qhov nthuav rau kuv - qhov no mishmash ntawm Horde thiab Orthodoxy - lub nroog Moscow. Kuv mam li qhib phau ntawv - Kuv nyiam nws, Kuv yuav qhib lwm phau - Kuv tsis nyiam nws. Kuv xav hais txog kuv txoj kev no - qhov no yog ib lub tsev zoo, tab sis leej twg ua nws - nws tsis muaj teeb meem.
Puas yog koj tsim koj tus kheej kev taw qhia?
Qhov tseeb, yog. Tam sim no kuv hais mav tab tom ua haujlwm, lawv tau saib ib yam dab tsi, leej twg paub, tej zaum ib tus neeg yuav imbued nrog cov tswv yim no thiab yuav muaj kev ua si nrog txuas ntxiv. Kuv tsis kam ua kom ib lub tsev kawm ntawv, nws yog qhov tsis tseem ceeb - kom ua ib yam dab tsi rau ib tus neeg. Kuv xav ua ib yam - thiab rau tib neeg saib nws. Tej zaum lawv yuav pom tej yam txaus nyiam nyob rau ntawd, tab sis yog tias lawv tsis pom nws, nws tsis thab kuv ntau.
